We recently stayed four days at Maxwell Gunter recreational campground at Lake Martin, Alabama. All of the waterfront lots are taken up by permanent, i say again, permanent campers.

Lot 55 and all of the 30 series on the waterfront are taken up by people who have been there 2 to 3 years. They pay $300 per month whereas a daily rate is $15.00 per day. The problem is there are very, very, few daily lots available. Lots 52, 53, and 54, 57 and 58 are daily lots on the water and that is about all they have. The land belongs to Alabama power and light, and is leased to the airforce and is contracted by a private contractor. The contractor states that if it wasn't for the permanent residents they could not make it financially. Everyone would love to be able to live for $300 per month with water, lights, sewer and garbage included.

There are thousands and thousands of A.D. , disabled and retired veterans who are deprived of being abled to use the facility because of a few people that are taken total advantage of the situation. I feel this is a total injustice to all of the vets who would like to camp on the water but, cannot because of a selfish few. I feel this policy should be changed immediately if not sooner. Or up the rent to $600 per month per lot and do away with half of the permanent campers and increase the daily lots on the waterfront. This way they will get the same income they are getting now, and a few more vets will have daily spots to camp on the waterfront.

This subject is open for replys.


J. Troutt (cw4 retired)
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We also have another post running about the generaly unfairness of the "homesteaders" -- permanent, long term housing is not what the FamCamps are all about. I imagine as more of us begin the FamCamp trek in our retirement, more will become upset at the unfair policy that allows a few "favorites" to occupy the best sites...

One problem that will emerge too, if any change is demanded, will be that the "favorites" will suddenly gain "titles" -- "Laundry Supervisor" for example, and remain ...

Unless we take a stand about our benefits here, these "supervisors" will continue to steal some of what we all earned together defending our freedoms...

maybe a note to the base commander would help.
Archie

Write the Base Commander!!! Give me a break. They are do nothing care takers and they can not wait to get their next promotion. No promotion if any boats are rocked. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN/WOMAN. Everyone must do this to get it on the horizon. We need to state that dollars are taken from the Famcamp coffers to pay for other base activities like NCO/OFC clubs plus golf courses etc and not put back into the profit centers FamCamps are.

As far as these squatters who live in the most run down God awful trailers, they ought to be hauled off to the junk yard. No one should have the right to stay in any FamCamp for longer than three months. None of these people should be active duty or civilian ex military personel. They are getting quarters allowance for base or off base housing and not for bringing down the quality of life of the FamCamps.

This is my first day on this web site. I am disgusted with how little empowerment the people here seem to think they possess. Organize, make changes, insist on proper enforcement of the rules. Use the Smart Club as your base to get things changed. I just looked at your 5 star rating camps. How can anyone justify rating a camp without 50 amp service as a 5 star camp. It should be at best a 3. If you accept crap, you deserve crap. I do not ever accept crap, that is why my nick name is the Tominator. If I am out of line then this site is not worth belonging to. If I am right, which I know I am, then get off of your ass and start writing.

Wow. I'm impressed.

Glenn

Wow is right Glenn -- I don't know what to say!!! Maybe we should throw everyone out and start over.

Would it be accurate to say that this problem exists because the price to homestead is cheap? It's cheap in dollars, security, and convenience. And, without restrictions to the contrary, requires little effort to find another campground to accommodate their long-term stay.

So, who is willing to come up with an all service standardized policy that will please everyone all the time, get organized, and then get a bill passed thru Congress for its implementation? I vote for "Tominator."

Rick

PS: 5 star rating 30 vs 50 amps. Propane and power management is why.

You're probably right -- inexpensive and safe -- at least for a part of the reason.

And I agree -- let's vote and send Tominator up to D.C. and let him represent our interests as military campers ... probably be fixed in time for this summer, or by the fall at least. I can't wait to see the NEW MWR CG system ... maybe we can get it at no cost too ... make us all happy campers.

Regarding "tominator", this guy scares me.....after reading his review of the Rating System this site uses, and the remainder of his comments regarding the general state of the world on that thread, if we send this guy to Washington, He will single-handedly get all funding cut off from MWR and Military Campground benefits currently ENJOYED by much of us, will be lost altogether... I WILL VOTE AGAINST HIM !

I would start off with the Base Commander and then you can tell your congressperson that you have used the chain of command, rather than be told to contact the Base Commander by your representative.

Also why would one want to immediately assume that the BC is a "do nothing caretaker" waiting for their next promotion. I have found that painting everyone with the same brush without adequate information is usually unproductive.

Tom, why are you so angry? Thank god, you are here to lead us all to the land of milk & honey! I suspect you will not be happy with us "unempowered" ass-sitters on this site.

Well I am finding all kinds of places that my posts are getting the blood running hot. That is good. Passion is what gets things done. Politics is what most of you are afraid of. The MWR is going no where. No politician would dare take it away. There would be a half a million campers, RV's etc descending on Wahington DC if they even tried to do it.

The best thing to do is get on a caravan and go from base to base. Set up camp on the Commanders lawn until he changes the squatters rules. He would look pretty awful in the press bringing out the MP's to remove everyone. It would only take a few photo's sent to the media via email etc to get him in trouble. Look on the bright side, it would be a lot of fun. Most of us were either in during Viet Nam or born after Viet Nam. Either way we missed out on all of the love in's of the 60's. Why miss out on them again.

If you think it will not work, here is what I did. My tub shower was being retiled. it was taking them a week to get the job done. On Friday morning i called the Base Commander at his home and said that i was on the way over with my wife and 2 kids to use his shower so we could clean up. We were stinking for not being able to take a bath for a week. He asked for my address and within an hour the job was completed. I did have to wait for a day to use the shower. So arrangements were made so we could clean up elsewhere. You challenge not, you get not. The gutless always gets left behind. The turtle goes no where unless he sticks his neck out.

Lets have some fun!!

that will most certainly work. It will completely resolve the issue as the base commander will turn to the MWR cheif and tell him or her to plow over the campground since the space is needed for more mission essential activities.

A. What military were you in where you think you could even get the jacks down on the base commander's lawn before you were cuffed and incarcerated?

B. Where on the military map are you going to find a base where you can get away with any of this.

C. If you are expecting the public to get it's shorts in a bind over a bunch of "overpaid" military retirees with nothing better to do than cause problems on a military base during a period of war, you are sorely in error.

You forget that we are the "guests" of the base commander, we are not a mission essential operation.

Glenn

I do not know what each service regulation says, but I do know that the current Army Regulation AR 215-1, which governs Army MWR, specifically prohibits "homesteading".

"(b) Homesteading or use of Army travel camps or other outdoor recreation facilities for temporary or permanent quarters is not authorized. Length of stay policy for Army recreation areas and campgrounds is established by the garrison commander. Army facilities located on Corps of Engineer property constitute the only exception to the stay limit policy. Stay limits on Corps property are 30 days within a 60 consecutive day period during peak season, and 60 days within a 90 consecutive day period during the off season"

Granted, the regulation does leave it to the discretion of the Garrison Commander, however in the case of Ft. Gordon, all it took was one IG complaint that the Garrison Commander was violating AR 215-1 and the homesteaders were gone within 30 days. This situation really needed correcting because it had gotten so bad that civilian contractors who worked at Ft. Gordon were giving up their apartments in town and buying campers and moving to the Rec Area because it was much cheaper than renting an apartment. It also helped that the Points West Rec Area is located on Corps of Engineers property and the regulation did not allow the comander any discretion.

The downside to this was that within a few months, MWR placed approximately 20 FEMA campers in the Rec Area in an attempt to make up for the income lost when the homesteaders were kicked out. This is in addition to the 12 rental campers they already had on prime spaces. I do not think this is really working out so well for them since most of the rental units are only rented out on 3 day weekends but they are there now and I assume they will stay. Camping Area 4 is completely filled with these rental units and is pretty much empty most of the time except for long weekends. Sixteen prime spaces with empty rental units just sitting there. MWR told me that some of the FEMA trailers are going into the "secret" camping area just built at Leitner Lake on Ft. Gordon proper near the Rod and Gun club.

So it is true that nothing much was gained by evicting the homesteaders due to the FEMA trailers being brought in, there is a certain amount of satisfaction knowing that all of the prime spaces are NOT being occupied by contractors, most of whom had never been in the military. In the grand scheme of available camping spaces, it was pretty much a wash.

There are some guidelines, at least in the Army regulation and possibly other service regulations. The problem is having enough people take the necessary action to get them enforced. There is also an issue with how do these guidelines apply when the campground is turned over to a contractor to operate on what is basically a "for profit" basis.

I will agree with one of the other previous posters. When you go into an Army MWR campground and see campers with decks and/or covered porches, large refrigerators and freezers sitting on the ground, and other indications that they have been there too long, then that is "homesteading" and is a violoation of AR 215-1 dated 15 Aug 2005.

now I know why my wife makes sure I take my meds. 8)

This debate is going on in several places around the forums and I see that the general feeling is that the people that are using the campgrounds as nothing more than a place to live out the rest of their days are not well liked.

My feeling is that if your rig can no longer be moved without deconstruction, you have stayed too long. Someone brought up a case where a CB base had a trailer on it in a campsite that was being used as a getaway place by a former CB that was living in a retire home nearby. I don't think that there are too many people that would want to see someone like that get tossed out either. People that are leveraging themselves onto the "prime" sites and moving in for years need to be removed. As for people like the CB in the example above, maybe something could be worked out for people like that, perhaps his trailer could be moved to a storage lot, parking area or dry site when he is not using it then put back on a site when he is using it. Who here would not offer to help move or set up a trailer for someone like that?

As far as MWR saying that they rely on the income that these people generate that is a crock. I clean well managed campground will generate more income than a trailer park as soon as the word gets out that the "good" sites are available, and that the rif raf that were ruining the view and taking the best sites are gone.

You want action, call these campgrounds and ask to reserve a site that is occupied by a "homesteader" when they say that the site is not available just say fine, I will just stay someplace else. If you go to a campground that has a large number of homesteaders in it cut your stay short and leave, when they ask why tell them it is because of the homesteaders. When they see that these people are hurting them more than helping them the message will become clear.

Some of you seem to have forgotten that MWR is similar to a non-profit organization. The only way for them to offer amenities to the active servicemen is through some sort of self-generated income. For most bases, the most lucrative is their RV park. Very little overhead with big profits that go to pay salaries for other MWR employees and towards those programs for the active personnel. While it is irritating to not be able to get a site due to homesteaders, those homesteaders are a continuous and reliable source of income for the program. That is why it seems no one will do anything about it. Its a don't bite the hand that feeds you kind of thing. Otherwise they can't offer benefits to their active duty personnel and the lack of that will get a whole lot more attention from Commanders and Congressmen.

It almost sounds to me that many of you are ticked that someone has found a cheap place to stay and beat you to it. I use a FamCamp if it is convienent to where I am going. Just about every FamCamp has a commercial campground not too far from the area it is located it. Oh, you don't want to spend the extra dollars! Too bad. Sounds like you want to get back to running the world you retired from. Ain't gonna happen. I see no reason to be needing to be inside a military fence anymore. The only place I homestead is on my own site I own on the Gulf beach in TX. I don't believe in camping at Wal-Mart either. If the lifestyle is so important to you the broaden your horizons and quit trying to run the post or base. I have been full timing for 7 yrs and we do travel quite a bit 5 - 10,000 miles a year.
Chris the Bigfoot
40' 2001 American Dream
2000 Merc Mountaineer
DataStorm User # 1226

Just to weigh in here. I don't know anyone who wants to run the world that we retired from. That was a big reason for retiring.

The military campgrounds are operated by the MWR on the base. They need to make a profit so the active duty guys have an MWR fund to pay for stuff they need. Without the retirees these camps will go away. Chris, the next time you are in a military campground look around. Every one we've been in will have 90% of the occupants being retirees. Why do we stay there? Not necessarily because it is cheaper, although that helps. It is because we enjoy being amoung our comrads. Personally, I spent a major portion of my life around military people. I did spend several years in another career but I prefer military folks. They are just better people to be around, in my opinion.

If a camp is filled up with homesteaders, especially if these people are not military connected, then I will complain. Again, if they run off the retirees these campgrounds will cease to exist because they will no longer be self-supporting.

You're absolutely right oldchief. I enjoy the military campgrounds because of the comraderie. Also, we need to remember that most of these campgrounds were built with non-appropriated funds, i.e. the money we spent on MWR and at AAFES. We bought and paid for these campgrounds each time we made a purchase.

wow
i have not posted here befre, but this got me thinking a bit
as luck would have it i am visting one of my old stomping grounds next wwek, it used to have folks living there year round unless the river flooded.
then they changed policy and it was EMPTY.
but now they have a new one up near the PX and gas station
I would hope as with most base rv parks we visit they make the "long Termers" move off prime sites during the busy seasons

but we all know from being active duty. EVERYTHING is waiverable
some folks might need to live on base at the rv park for extended periods. you just never know

anyway thanks for such a great place to visit